Rollercoaster
I wasn't going to blog on this, but what the hell.
I rode on my first BIG rollercoaster last week. One of those that is super high speed and flings you all over. I have never been a rollercoaster fan. I trace that to riding on the Monster Coaster here with my dad when I was 8. I was promised that it wouldn't be scary, but to me, it WAS (even though now . . . I know it's a silly little ride). So I stopped riding on coasters. I think one boyfriend talked me into riding one of those old wooden dragon coasters when I was 17 and I hated it.
But last week, I rode on a REAL one with Oldest Daughter. I screamed and shrieked at the top of my lungs. My heart pounded. My palms sweated. And when it was done, I realized I LOVED it.
Did I like being terrified? I don't know. I liked riding on it with my Oldest Daughter and sharing that experience. SURVIVING it together, and holding hands and laughing when it was done.
I'll be real honest. I read this excerpt last night:
http://www.jakonrath.com/kilborn.htm
(You have to click on the sample.)
And I find myself wondering what entertains. It's so personal. For some it's romance, for another erotica. For an erotica writer it might be a very "soft" story--for another it can be about a lifestyle that some don't understand. Even within, say, S&M erotica, there are extremes.
For some a thriller, for another horror. And within horror, there are the Quentin Tarantinos . . . the shock value movies like SAW, and the movies that build on suspense. There's something about the excerpt above that some people will love.
I try to give people's tastes a very wide berth. I would never want censorship in any form. But there's a piece of me, a part of me, that finds it depressing that what entertains some of us is killing people and torturing people. We seek it to AMUSE us. On the flip side . . . by being scared, like riding a roller coaster, we're taken outside ourselves.
But now, I guess . . . with maybe a different perspective because of age and politics and religion, maybe an existential view of the world, there's so much REAL horror--Darfur, for example--that I feel like I don't want cheap thrills. I want to be passionate about the REAL tragedies in the world. I can't imagine, for example, writing something like the above, and then encountering the parent of a young woman tortured and raped, and explaining that I wrote a book about rape and degradation and torture to make money or to entertain people. I don't know. Would I feel better if it was a "message book"--does that make it more OK?
So I don't have an answer here, as I blog. I don't know what entertains anymore. I know what I DON'T want to read and see. And I wonder about what pushes some to the choices in entertainment they make. And I will say that I admire Joe for championing writers. I could pick a dozen writers who explore torture.
What entertains you?
Thoughts?
53 comments:
LOL, I'm not brave enough to click through because I know his non-horror writing, LOL. Have you been to Stewart Sternberg's blog? As a horror writer, he's discussed this topic several times. Actually, I think you two would have quite a bit in common. I don't think he's a social worker, but he's an educator that's in the trenches a lot. (Not that you're an educator, but you're in the trenches often.)
I struggle with this all the time, though. My latest, I wrote my editor and worried, "I'm getting off on what is essentially the worst day of my character's life!" The demands of story insist that we put our characters through hell, and we feel it deeply, like they are real people. I'm traumatized by what my characters go through sometimes, the heartbreak, the fears, the worries.
And then I step back, and realize I've got an entertaining story. It's totally BIZARRE to me! It's weird. Just weird. I can't reconcile it.
I totally hear what you're pondering about a "message" book, too. There've been stories that have passed through my mind, where I've worried about the same thing. (Although I prefer message books to not deliver their message. The story should do it all by itself.)
I don't know the answer, though. I do think it's better if some things are out there, even in fiction. Maybe especially in fiction. The opposite of out of sight, out of mind.
And you can't go too far wrong if you love and respect your character and the readers who have had similar experiences.
Good lord, SORRY to go on so long!
Hi Spy:
I don't know . . . I really don't have an answer. I KNOW there are sick things out there. But I guess Andrew Vachss writes about sickness . . .in a noir way, and I like his writing, but it's essentially to draw attention to the sickness--not for horror. Not for the scare. I'll go check out that blog.
E
I am usually entertained by the light and humorous, but also by the informative and deep. Is there anything more terrifying than a realistic portrayal of The Holocaust as in Schindler's List? Or Sophie's Choice? Horrible, chilling stuff. (I know they're movies, but stick with me) But gratuitous violence? I don't get it and I stay far away. Sometimes I think people like these books and movies because it makes the worst things in the world more touchable, maybe taking some of the fear away. It's a way of dealing with an issue or a tragedy without really having to deal with it.
When I read I like to be enchanted, not horrified. I think it's the reason that fantasy genres are so hot these days, people want to escape from the realities of our world, which can be terrifying. Our neighbors are losing their homes, people can't afford to fill their tanks with gas, families are homeless, drugs permeate society, soldiers die every day.
Chilling.
Hi Amy:
Sophie's Choice was about the most devastating example to me. Because it brought this horror down to a single choice. A choice ANY mother or father could "imagine" through the work of fiction, having to make. I didn't see it as "entertainment" or for chock value, but bringing the reality of the Holocaust down to personal terms.
I don't read horror. And if I were to go back to read Stephen King, for example, I think the paranoia he describes is suspenseful enough. I don't know that I need torture piggybacked onto well-done horror. I guess it begs the question . . . is it the "feelings" you are trying to arouse through suspense, paranoia, and character . . . or is it purely the horrific natire of violence to the extreme . . .
I wonder what horror readers think.
E
You and I discussed this topic this weekend, but I kept thinking about something Stephen King said, which is that he attempts for terror, and if he doesn't get it, goes with horror, and if he doesn't get that, he'll go for the gross-out, he's not proud.
I've never felt like King was gratuitous, though, although there are probably examples where he pushed me over the edge.
I do worry a bit about getting desensitized to real horrors.
I chaperoned for marching band camp a couple weeks ago and one of the 13-year-old boys was more vocal about the sex thing than most and he kept trying to get one or another kid to say "ex-ex-ex-ex-ex" really fast (he's a dork, what can you say?) and I finally said, "Oh for God sakes, sex is not a bad word."
The point of this is that we're exposed to tons and tons of violence in books and movies, but we tend to protect our kids from sex. But if we're lucky, they'll never be exposed to real violence, but almost inevitably, they're going to have sex somewhere along the lines (y'know, when they're 30 or so).
The joke in my family is my wife likes shoot-em-ups (as do I), but I also like romantic comedies, which she doesn't really like. What I usually think but haven't really said when she teases me about it is:
Sometimes it's nice to watch or read a story in which nobody dies, there's no gun, explosion or car chase.
And there's a test for you: can you watch a movie or TV show in which a character doesn't pull out a gun?
Mark:
I had this discussion with my kids. I took the three younger ones to see Wall-E. On the way out, we got into this discussion about what makes a G movie, what makes an R and what makes an NC-17. I was telling my kids it is RIDICULOUS that if you see a PENIS in a movie it's an NC-17, but you can see a man beheaded and call it a PG-13. I told them that sexuality isn't something people should make you feel ashamed over, but that I consider it a deep shame that violence is glorified. It made them think. I pretty much let my kids see what they want--with the caveat that if it's GRATUITOUS violence (vs. cartoonish) then no, they can't. They can't see movies in which women are beaten or abused. But if there's a set of breasts, I could care less. If there's tasteful sex . . . so what?
E
Erica, chilling stuff I agree. I can't read torture porn/violence books. They stay with me much longer than I'd like. What scares me is that once we create something, it's here to stay. It gains strength and moves through our society. It's like when you give something your attention, it IS.
All the imaginable horrors of the world are here. We don't have to watch them or read about them, though. Can you imagine what that author dreams about at night? I mean, what would it do to you physically to wallow in those characters? Can't go there.... Too damn creepy.
Hi Ladonna:
Well . . . I don't know. I think people like Quentin Tarantino and some horror fans just LOVE it. Delight in it. Don't have nightmares. Don't go where you or I would go. It's entertainment, pure and simple, for them. Of course, that begs the question of WHY? I have no idea. Which is why I blogged on it.
As for me, like you . . . can't go there. There's also a karma element. I just don't want to put that out there. Just me . . . just my opinion. I don't know . . . .
E
I think people read to feel emotion. A friend writes torture porn and she does very well. It's not my favorite books (I've read a few because she's my friend and she's a good writer). I don't read horror either. Otherwise I read the gamut, from romance to mystery, from dark to light -- as long as I'm enjoying the writing, the characters and the stories.
edie:
Interesting. Again, for me the question, I suppose, goes beyond taste--which is very individual--and to the core of what is entertainment. Is is entertaining to read torture? And why?
E
Crap. I lost my original post. Anyway, it went something like this...
I think people like the gore and violence because it's an adrenaline rush. It's the same reason why people skydive or rock climb. It's all about the drug in their brains and they want more of it without necessarily putting their neck on the line for it.
IMHO, gore is just a cheap shot at shock value. I can think of a dozen things that are more shocking and all you have to do is turn to the nightly news for a recap. It's real and it hits a lot closer to home than fiction does. That makes it, in my mind, much more horrific than anything out there on the market.
For me, horror has the deepest amount of intrigue out in the fictional market, though not all creators are smart about it. I don't need my brain to dulled via copious ways of blood letting. Give me smart monsters and/or villians and I am so there. Rooting for characters who are in an impossible situation, that's my adrenaline rush. It pushes the character's motivation to a whole new level and that's what I want. A smart one will showcase that motivation both internally and externally and use the blood letting sparingly. A dumb one will leave me rooting for the monsters. Call me crazy, but I like to care about my characters regardless of the genre.
I'm going to jump in on the karmic train and say that there is really enough torture/pain/suffering/horror in the world already, and that the act of writing about it, fiction or otherwise, just puts more of it out there in the world... possibly even gives what is already there more legitimacy simply by the fact that it is being written about, being generated.
I'm not going to tell another writer that they cannot write about something, but that does not mean I have to condone or even promote it.
marcia:
I thought The Shining was a god example of the paranoia type of horror. Worked for me . . . . the claustrophobia, the insanity . . . not so much bloodletting shown per se.
E
Hi Ewoh:
Like I said in the comments section, I am just as much interested in WHY. Why are people entertained by it? It's not my taste, and there's the karma thing, and I don't want to put it out there, for sure. But I still puzzle over the entertainment value of it.
E
I do not think that the "knowing why" would make a difference.
If you knew why there were people who liked that kind of stimulus what would you make it mean?
Many times I find that when I want to know something I usually want to be right about it, or make someone else wrong about it. I am not saying that is why you want to know, but just relating my own drive.
I guess that this is just one of those things that I believe knowing would make no difference.
Huh. I'd never read any JA Konrath before. All I knew about him was that he's considered something of a marketing guru among writers. Interesting.
I think people read stuff like that because it caters to the worst instincts in humans, but they are instincts nonetheless. They are real. You call it torture porn, and it's actually not so different from certain genres of real pornography, where the point is to humiliate the poor girl who signed the contract. You can watch this stuff and read it and get the vicarious thrill of being the healthy one, being the safe one, while a fantasized, fetishized horror plays out before you.
Whatever. It reminds me of James Patterson, whom I absolutely refuse to read for the same reason.
I think there is a place for bloody violence in literature, precisely because it's part of the human condition. I just finished No Country For Old Men, by Cormac McCarthy, and before that, read The Road. Both are gruesome in the extreme. But rather than celebrate this kind of sadism as a tool, McCarthy shows how this kind of thing drags us all down.
I don't think I'll read any more Konrath.
JVZ
Hi Eowh:
I guess I am not phrasing it right. I guess I want a horror fan to tell me what is entertaining about it--to defend it, particulary this more depraved version of horror. Because there is part of me that I guess wants to see just what the defense of it is maybe so I can dismiss it.
E
Interesting post. I have to be careful about what I read/watch, because I tend to be too empathetic (if one can say that). Things will sit with me for a long, long time, and will make me frustrated.
I do like books and movies that explore dark themes and times (like Schindler's list), but I don't think I could ever sit through something like Saw or its equivalent.
Way to go, btw, getting on the rollercoaster!!! Did your daughter talk you into it?
:-)
JVZ:
Precisely. When has depravity become sport? I agree it bears a resemblance to some porn.
It's like "just because you CAN create something like this . . . do you feed that basest of human instinct?" I accidentally--clicking through--saw about 45 seconds of SAW II. At most. But I happened to click on like a HUGE moment of torture. And I funbled to click faster (which is why it lasted longer than a few seconds, I literally started fumbling I was so stunned). Why? I absolutely don't get it. I also wonder if the people who enjoyed it so much lost a loved one to a depraved serial killer if they would continue to enjoy it. Is it the inhumanity of the people on the screen or page? That they aren't real so that's OK?
E
Chris:
Yup . . . she talked me into it.
And yes, I thought Schindler's and Sophie's Choice, and even The Deer Hunter made strong statements on war--which struck me as a statement on war/peace and humanity, and as art . . . important for discussion.
E
Reading over the comments, I started wondering if there's a correlation between the people who watch torture porn and those who follow the real-life travesties going on in the world. Part of me feels like the people who enjoy it are less aware of situations like Darfur, but I could be alienating a lot of well-informed horror buffs. I don't know.
I'm one who cannot watch or read anything gruesome, but I can tolerate stories based on real events (like Schindler's List).
Erica, I'm proud of you for going on the roller coaster. I had a similar experience as a child and have only been on two as an adult: one at Great America (I threw up afterwards) and the roller coaster at the Mall of America. :)
I'm not brave enough to click the link, either. But now I feel a lot better about making money writing erotic books that entertain people. I much prefer entertainment about people making each other happy. I'm much more disturbed by violence than I am by sex.
melanie:
I don't know. Could horror be an escape for some from the real things that transfix others? I just don't know.
E
charlene:
Yeah. I mean there are extreme fetishes, but overall people seem more uptight about sex than violence in this country.
E
I've known Joe Konrath online for a few years, and recently got to chat with him live a couple of times on his new forum. He's really a nice guy. Great sense of humor. Maybe you should invite him over so he can have a chance to give his perspective on this matter. Or, he's having another live chat Thursday night (8 central, 9 eastern) if anyone would like to join in. I'm going to try to be there again.
Personally, I find no entertainment value in gore. Blood and guts bore me. But I think really good horror is about redemption, about exploring darkness to understand and appreciate light.
For something to be entertaining, suspense is the key element for me. I enjoy biting my nails worrying about what's going to happen next. A little bit of onstage violence goes a long way if it's done right, IMHO.
Jude:
I hear you. Darkness/light . . . all that. But there's a sense of depravity that is a core thread of SOME horror that seems to be based on "just how depraved can I write or film this" versus some nuanced portrayal of light and dark in any stretch. And I find it hard to believe that extreme torture is necessary for that.
And I certainly appreciate your comment--believe me, I am sure he's a nice guy in real life. But I don't want to "debate" the social relevance of torture porn. Like I said, I was thinking aloud more. Why does it exist?
E
P.S. And I'm with you--a little goes a LONG way.
Yeah, like Hitchcock's famous shower scene. We don't need to see Janet Leigh cut to ribbons. A glint of the knife blade and some blood-tinged water circling the drain did the trick quite nicely.
This is why I've always thought vampire stores aren't really about the supernatural. They're about us. Human beings are scary predatory animals. And a lot of us forget that.
I'm wondering if context makes a difference.
I know torture is never ethically acceptable, but does it seem somewhat less despicable when perpetrated against an extremely evil character to obtain vital information?
And Erica, I have to say I cheered when Tom did what he did in The Roofer.
So does context make a difference?
Jude:
I think so. Perhaps that's another blog post. But basically . . . I don't "think" (unless I am kidding myself) that I wrote an entire 300 page novel filled with depraved torture. I wrote of a single revenge incident--and without the intent to titilate people or "entertain" with gruesomeness. And I think the other part of it is that act ruined Tom's life, so there was a sense of it as moral crisis. But I know my INTENT as writer was to depict a realistic revenge killing based on some knowledge I had ot Westie culture. My intent . . . (intent/context perhaps being interchangeable here) was not to shock people for shock value for a sale, for depravity, for "isn't this for kicks."
Maybe some of it is . . . if you look at a horror movie or book, it's INTENT is to terrorize/scare. And that's a fine intent. But is the only route there to then "entertain" and deliver that scare with depravity to an extreme?
E
There's a torture scene in my novel on submission, but the guy being tortured has three hooded characters and a burning cross tattoed on his chest. So is the torture justified? Never. But I don't think I wrote that scene for shock value or for a sale; I think it's what my lead character needed to do at the time.
Gratuitous depravity sickens me, but I don't think that's what Joe's book is about. I'll at least give him the benefit of a doubt before reading the whole thing.
Jude:
Have you READ the excerpt?
E
I did read it. The comment I left on Joe's forum:
Well-written. INTENSE. Disturbing. Stephen King once said that all good art should make us uncomfortable. Afraid is the opposite of my La-Z-Boy.
Like I said before, the gore itself has no entertainment value for me. But I think there's a story here, a real story, and I have to imagine Good wins out in the end. It just seems like a classic horror tale to me, not torture porn.
Jude:
OK . . . five serial killers turned loose on a village. That was chapter 1. You're not going to tell me that it's going to be "the 700 most depraved ways to kill, terrorize and torture people"? I mean, yeah, I might (MIGHT--not sure) think the sheriff wins out in the end. But I think it's going to be 500 pages of depraved torture. Again--there's a story there. An intense story. But WHY would that entertain? I don't know. All today I have been thinking aloud about it here on the blog. I think I am being far less articulate than usual (for me anyway) because it just is so far from my realm of what I would read and what would entertain me.
E
Afraid is pretty bloody, but I'm pretty sure I left most of the details up to the reader's imagination.
It's goal is to scare people. People are afraid of pain and death, among other things. I also delve into fear of the dark, claustrophobia, fear of the woods, fear of the unknown, fear of adults, fear of fire, and a litany of other fears.
I think the total amount of torture in Afraid amounts to less than a page or two, and it isn't gratuitous or lingering.
But being at the mercy of someone who intends to harm you is pretty scary, so there are some scenes like that in the book.
It's not everyone's cup of tea. But the book is called Afraid...
As for peoples' interest in gore, I think it's partly genetic, partly curiosity, partly fear. How many times have you gotten stuck in traffic because of rubberneckers at a car accident? What exactly are they slowing down to see? Or gawkers at a crime scene? Or anyone who goes to a freak show?
The Grand Guignol has a long history in theater. Heck, read Shakespeare. Tell me Titus Andronicus wasn't going for the gross out.
But going for the gross out in books is pretty cheap. Gratuitous depictions of gore make me wonder what the author's intent was. Fetishizing or stylizing violence is different than using it to instill fear. Then the violence becomes the goal rather than the means to reach the goal.
With Afraid, my goal is to scare the crap out of people. By showing some violence, I've established what the villains are capable of. Then, when the reader begins to care about the protagonists, much of the suspense and tension and fear comes from what they believe is going to happen to the protagonists if they get caught.
If I were writing torture porn, and the goal was to show gratuitous pain (read DeSade's Justine if you want a classic example of this) then I'd graphically slaughter all the main characters and let evil prevail.
But I don't like books that do that, so instead I have my characters band together and conquer the evil.
My goal isn't to gross out or titillate. It's to horrify and frighten.
And, of course, it's all escapism. There's a lot of misery in the real world, but I don't think any of it is a result of a commando unit made up of serial killers... :)
Hi JA:
Thanks for dropping by. As a claustrophobic who is ALSO afraid of the dark--LOL!--I do "feel" that in every page I read. I reallly do. What was heartbreaking to me was the spousal relationship--you could have showed NO violence--and what happened was awful, but the situation that the husband found himself in, what was "left" of her . . . I realize to you there wasn't graphic detail of the torture, but to me . . . I don't "get" it. But I'm a Buddhist, so the whole IDEA of being--again--entertained by this situation is beyond me. Which is why I likened it to a rollercoaster. Some people like being scared.
I don't know about this genetic/curiosity/fear triumverate. I don't rubberneck. I think in my worldview, again, I voraciously read about Darfur, what's going on in Iraq in terms of civilian casualties, what's going on in Soviet Georgia, and so on. I am not someone who thinks violence doesn't exist. I guess it boils down to choosing that for entertainment. Buying a book in which I know torture is part of it because I WANT that particular scare. If someone reads the back cover of AFRAID, and sees "Five Serial Killers Turned Loose" there is a segment of this population that is going to think "All right, FIVE TIMES the torture and mayhem and blood and scariness--sign me up! FUN TIMES!" And that I don't see as genetic. Maybe it is. It's a mindset that is different, which is why I was interested in people's responses.
Hi Erica!
I voraciously read about Darfur, what's going on in Iraq in terms of civilian casualties, what's going on in Soviet Georgia, and so on.
That's interesting. I purposely try to avoid reading about real atrocities. Man's inhumanity is depressing, disgusting, and unpardonable. The stuff I write is fake, meant to elicit an emotional response. But it's a vicarious, false response. Real atrocities provoke a real response, and I don't want to go there.
I realize to you there wasn't graphic detail of the torture
Then how could it be torture porn? :)
We're both writers. Who is the POV character in that scene? The person being hurt? Or her husband?
If I were trying to titillate, wouldn't it be more effective to be in the victim's head, cataloging her pain?
But that's not the point of that scene. As a married guy who would die for his wife, I can't think of anything worse than watching the woman I love be hurt, and not being able to do anything. That, to me, is the stuff of nightmares.
Fake nightmares. Not real nightmares.
Silence of the Lambs won an Academy Award. People like fake nightmares.
Since you enjoyed that roller coaster, you do understand what it is like to test your mettle and see if you can handle something potentially dangerous.
The only difference is, a roller coaster is potentially dangerous. I once rode a coaster called The Edge at Six Flags Great America, and the very next week two people died on that ride.
I highly doubt anyone will die reading Afraid.
I don't watch sad movies, don't read sad books. When I learned that the dog died at the end of Marley and Me, I refused to read it. Why would I want to put myself through that? I have three dogs. What entertainment value is there in a tearjerker? Seriously?
Yet it was a huge bestseller, and a lot of sad books and movies are produced.
Same coin, different side.
Hi Joe:
I hear you. Interesting debate.
I read about the real stuff . . . I WORK in the trenches of the real stuff. I mentored as a volunteer for years with unwed teen mothers in the worst of the 'hood and saw things that were so heartbreaking, and I worked as a volunteer ESL teacher with Vietnamese and Cambodian refugees and boat people who told me stories of such sadness. I feel like humanity is capable of great horror, but then I as an individual can make a small difference. Ignorance is not bliss. For me, at least.
Again . . . it boils down to why is it entertainment to read torture. To ME (me . . . .) it was torture porn. You weren't in her head, no. We weren't reliving every moment of it, but her husband's agony . . . yes, we were there for it. And I have to say . . . I don't know you, but is your answer less than honest when you say you weren't trying to titilate? Are you not setting out to write the most horrific serial killer book EVER and thus to do so have to raise the bar in some sense? You have to titillate. A half a body and an eyeball--seeing the end result doesn't make it LESS torture for not being in her head.
And yes, it's fake. I definitely understand that. Once again, it's entertainment. WHY does it entertain? Why is it titillating? The scare? The gore? Like I said, why will some people think "Woo-hoo, FIVE killers, more mayhem . . . sign me up." I don't know.
It's all individual taste, and you're obviously a huge horror fan and comfortable in the genre and with what you're writing. For me, shifting it into hypothetical doesn't totally make things all right--again for me. Like I said, my guess is if you lost a loved one to a serial killer, the idea that people are entertained by--albeit fake--torture would be offensive. But our differences are what makes a wide variety of books available--happy, sad, horrific, erotic.
E
but is your answer less than honest when you say you weren't trying to titilate?
The titilation, if any, comes from fear, not from the gratuitous description of the murderous acts. I understate the acts. In fact, I challenge you to figure out what was actually done to that man's poor wife. I don't go into any detail at all.
There's a difference between erotica and pornography.
Erotica is everything leading up to the sex, the feelings it evokes, what's happening in the minds of the characters.
Porn is insert slot A into tab B. It's about the mechanics.
Afraid is an attempt to write a scary book. Not a gross-out book. That's been done before, to much greater degrees, than anything in Afraid. Google "splatterpunk" for examples.
Torture porn, according to my knowledge, romanticizes pain and death. The unflinching, gratuitous depiction of torture is the attraction.
I'm trying to scare the hell out of people, not glorify suffering.
Of course, all opinions are valid, and I understand Afraid isn't your kind of novel.
I think this is an interesting discussion, because there are forms of entertainment that are loosely strung together set pieces of gore and torture.
Why are humans interested in seeing these things?
Perhaps a better question is why some human beings actually do these things.
Regardless, thanks for reading the excerpt. I hope the book provokes many discussions such as this one.
I prefer character driven novels, poetry and lit fic, although I enjoy really good erotica, too.
Graphic gore/torture/rape novels are a strange form of art I'll never understand.
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