Mars . . . Meet Venus
I don't pretend to "get" men. At all. I just don't. I have NEVER been lucky at love. I seem to have a large blinking sign on me that says "TROUBLE, please apply here."
I have two sons and two daughters. I love my guys, but I don't always get them either. You can read this Demon Baby post to see what I mean. No matter how much I try to have peace talks . . . Demon Baby wants to "fight." He is, as they say, "all boy."
As a feminist, I have to tell you I am a pretty God awful mother. Really. I say that with no false modesty. I love fiercely, but I don't have the "mom" gene in any traditional sense. I am terrible, in fact. I don't cook. I don't like to clean or do laundry. I hate being a soccer mom. Every day when I have to go sit on the sidelines while Baby Girl plays softball, I call my bestest friend in Florida and leave her messages on her answering machine like, "This is what my life has become. I am sitting in the rain at softball. I hate my life." I don't feel by virtue of my sex I am inherently better at any of the following: wiping baby asses when changing diapers, cleaning up kid puke, being the room "mom" (I have yet to meet a "room dad" in a combined total of . . . 26 years of kids being in school), and changing the roll of toilet paper (see my rant in previous comment section).
However, I do agree we are different. Having just edited a male author writing about sex in a romance, I can say we are WAY different. For instance, I say, often, to my best friend that I would "do" this man in a heartbeat. But that's about the extent of it. I don't refer to his private parts, I don't discuss exactly WHAT I would do to him, etc. However, the writer I just edited seems to think . . . well, that women are just sexed-up sex kittens just waiting for a chance to discuss men in the dirtiest of details like Penthouse Forum.
So I thought, for fun, we could post what we would tell the opposite sex if given the chance. When writing "as" a male character . . . I feel like I generally "nail" their perspective. But I screw up sometimes. Thank GOD, I have a guy in my writers' group. He protests vehemently when my male point of view gets a little too "touchy feely." And as soon as he points it out, I "see" it. So much so that now I really pull back. Thank you, JVZ.
So . . . if I was going to tell you male writers a thing or two about women, I would say:
- Yes, we have PMS, but NO, we really don't like being ASKED if it's that time. Just notice we're crabby and shut the f*** up.
- No, I am NOT, by virtue of my sex, better at being the room "mom" or any of the things I cited above. I just am not. I happen to not be LAZY, and I happen to love my kids, therefore I will DO IT, but it doesn't mean I like to, and it doesn't mean it's because I'm a woman and I am better at it by nature. Look, men tend to be the architects of war--look at the invasion of Normandy. THEREFORE, you are PERFECTLY capable of planning the school Valentine's Day party or any of the rest of it. You just don't want to.
- When a group of two or more of us are alone, we really, I promise you, don't have pillow fights, don't strip down to our panties and bra, and don't discuss you except to complain.
- Finally, yes, I do cry at the Hallmark commercials. But if you want to know how tough a woman is, place any of her kids in any kind of harrowing situation--be it sickness, a bully, or emotional pain. Then you will find out what we are made of.
59 comments:
Too much to say, too little space in which to say it. I'll limit myself to one item, the room mom thing:
Many mothers are uncomfortable with grown men (who are not very close friends or relatives) handling their children. Men learn to keep their hands off small children for fear of being accused of something. I've been interrogated by mothers for simply waiting in a hallway for my daughter to finish a dance lesson. I've also been scolded for helping a small girl up the monkeybars at a playground. No room mom for me. Nope. But it has nothing to do with me.
Men are very easy to understand. They want to be liked, or respected, or accepted (you choose the word; they all mean basically the same thing) and laid.
Hi Stephen:
That is a really good point. And actually, if I were going to write a single dad character, honest to God, that is something I would want to get right. Thanks!
Liked and laid. I'll keep that in mind.
E
Stephen got that completely right. I'll take that a step further. When I worked in a clinical hospital laboratory, we had a 16-year-old girl intern. Toward the end of the day it was just her and me and one other man. I went to our supervisor (a woman) and requested that the intern be assigned somewhere else at the end of the day. The other guy didn't get. "Nothing's going to happen." I know that, I told him, but it only takes the accusation to ruin your life.
Like Stephen suggests, I think men want to be thought of as sexy and attractive to women of all ages... even if they don't intend to do anything about it.
Men--many of them anyway--are deeply conflicted and confused about what women expect of them. Women seem to simultaneously want the strong, silent, tough guy who can fix the car, mow the lawn and fight off the mugger, who at the same time can change diapers, do the dishes, talk about their feelings and raise the kids. It's not always an easy thing to do.
And yes, ladies, we do think of you sexually. It's just what we do. But that doesn't mean we're actually going to act on it.
Mark:
Well, you and Stephen are both sexy guys, so I hope you feel good in that regard. ;-)
And I hear you on false accusations and so on--you are right to be careful. I think there are many confused adolescents--and many predators . . . and so either way, I would want my daughter to be careful, and since I know she has her head screwed on straight but others don't, I would later on in life want my son to be careful in the reverse.
As for what women want . . . you know, I actually don't go for the strong silent type at all. I'd like someone who can do his fair share of running the household, but I guess I might be in the minority there. I used to think this one guy friend of mine was the "perfect" husband. He ran that household like a top, had those kids in pressed clothes, ironed and so on, was just GREAT. Organized. Easy to talk to. Then, he came out of the closet. WELL . . . it ALL made sense to me then. What I really want is a gay husband. Really. Except one who is sexually attracted to me.
:-)
E
Okay, I want to say one more thing. Because Mark got to the heart of why women make no sense to men. Women want men to be strong and silent AND sensitive and expressive. They want men to change the oil AND paint in oils. They want men to protect the family with their fists AND wear an apron. And so on. These often self-contradictory expectations are difficult at best for men to live up to.
Stephen:
As we see around here, hop on the Couch. This sounds like quite a therapy session.
Note that I do NOT fall into the category of women. I just have no interest in a guy who is . . . a tough guy. Been there, done that, with husband #1.
Funny, a good father, smart, self-sufficient. Sums it up. I am SO sick of having to "mommy" men. Self-sufficient actually moves to the top of the list.
Noting, I think, that there are exceptions to everything and I don't think I'm a "typical" man. My wife likes sports--I barely pay attention to it. She runs the household, but I'm the one home most of the time, so I do the kid pickup, delivery to most appointments, get them off to school, etc.
That said, I was working out at the gym recently and heard some woman working with a personal trainer go off on how she "hated a man with soft hands." And here I was wearing workout gloves because I always got blisters. I still get calluses even with the gloves... anyway, Chris, the trainer looked at me and started laughing. I just shook my head and said, "Amazing the things you overhear in a gym."
And I would just extrapolate a bit that this concern about accusations against men around young kids or young women (or boys, for that matter) might go toward explaining why men sometimes seem emotionally distant.
Hi Mark:
I wrote this post rather tongue in cheek. If you read the Demon Baby post I linked to, I clearly marvel at the testosterone roaming in this kid, even raised by a peace-activist mother. So . . .
That aside, I have boys and girls--two of each. So I LOVE men. Love 'em. And I really do dislike (the tongue in cheek of my post aside) making assumptions. Like, soft hands? I understand some things attract us to members of the opposite (or same, as the case may be) sex . . . but really, do we have to be so silly sometimes? Like in the long list of things one is looking for, hands have to be one of them? I don't know. And the same can be true of guys . . . summing a woman up by her parts and not the whole.
Taking a lesson from Buddhism, if we could ALL look at each other as humanity and wholeness, we would go a long way toward getting along.
As for the atomosphere of accusations, I understand the fears. My significant other ran a YMCA sports program--2,000 kids! For three years. Was YMCA director of the year and so on. He was laid off a while ago (couple of years), after a hurricane decimated that Y. And part of me? Had always worried. He loved his work but there were kids from all kinds of backgrounds and foster care, and I thought, "You know, this is dangerous . . . because some of these kids and families are really in bad shape psychologically." I worried. But kids and foster care and so on . . . a passion for both of us.
E
Men go through periods of irritability too, so I think both sexes need to learn how to shut the f**k up sometimes. ;)
I would say most men are egomaniacs, and the sooner a woman learns that the better off she'll be in relationships. Stroke the old ego daily, and he'll be a puppet on a string for you.
This is a secret, though, so don't let it get around.
Jude:
Your secret is safe with me. And everyone who drops by the blog.
E
Whew. Where to start. As Stephen said, too much to say...
First of all, you are NOT a God awful mother and anyone who has read your blog more than twice knows that. If we're defining 'mother' as some cookie bakin' manicured princess who sews her kids clothes, runs the PTA, does dishes, baseball, ballet, and a four course meal daily, well then, I pretty much suck at the mother schtick too. We LOVE our kids. That makes us good mothers.F*&^ how anyone else wants to define a 'mother' Nuff said.
Second, the whole hands off thing applies to woman as well. I caught hell from a school librarian when I volunteered in our reading rescue program because a little fella (Gr 1) cuddled against me. I naturally put my arm around him. She reamed me for inappropriate contact. I came home and bawled my eyes out!
And finally, you guys send out pretty mixed messages too. I'm supposed to be successful in my career--but not make more money than you because that might be emasculating. While I grow this financially OK career, I am still supposed to get your daughters to dance, your sons to softball, groom the pet, keep a clean house, a nice garden and a healthy meal on the table. And let's not forget I should be devastating sexy, fit as a gymnast, attractive, and perfectly coifed as well. =)
Women are easy to understand. We want to be respected. And get laid. ;-)
Lainey:
I laughed out loud. Very well-put.
E
P.S. Love ya for saying I'm a good mom.
Lainey:
Is it that time of the month?
;)
Erica,
As my wife rather regularly says: "Martha Stewart doesn't live here."
Mark:
Martha Stewart SO doesn't live here either.
E
Interesting discussion...and post. I chuckled through most of it.
To the question...A man is what he is. Women need to learn that. You can't change us. You might get a guy to not put his feet on the coffee table or use a trivet under his beer can, but fundamentally he will not change. That, I think, is where men then really resent the woman in their life…when she’s trying to “rebuild” him.
So when my teenage daughters try to convince me that even though “Joe” is seeing someone else on the side, that “oh, but he really loves me,” I shake my head. The guy is a snake now and will always be a snake.
Most of what a guy is, is hardwired…dickering with the software won’t change him. What you see is what you get…most of the time. Like Mark said, there are exceptions to every rule.
Well I'm never having kids. I know I'm not mom material and I'm too selfish to do it. I know I'd be responsible for most of the raising and all that BS, I have no intention of ever being a room mom. I just don't want to be enslaved to that. My husband and I are happily child free and intend to remain so.
People used to tell me I'd "change my mind" when I was about 19. Now that I'm 29 and even less enthralled by the concept of kids than ever before, my family has just accepted it. (Note, I don't dislike kids. I think they're cute and funny and blah blah blah, I just don't ever want any of my own.)
As for what women talk about. I think it depends on the woman and her group of friends. My friends are pretty raunchy. We talk about things that would make most men blush. It's been my experience that girls, depending on the group, are just as dirty, if not dirtier than guys.
So when a male writes sex and assumes women are dirty little sex kittens. He may not be wrong. It depends on the woman. I guess from my perspective if I read a sex scene and I see a woman who is more withdrawn, I feel like she's ashamed of her sexuality and I completely don't connect with that. Whereas if she's pretty dirty and up front about it, I perceive that as honesty. So it all depends on the person. I don't think potential for perversion is a gender thing.
Too much to say, so I'll just limit it to one observation. Another advantage of being a freelance writer: I was a room dad for my oldest son from kindergarten through sixth grade. I went in every week and helped his various teachers in whatever way I needed. I also got A LOT of quality time with the room moms, planning parties and stuff. Just me an' the moms.
I was aware of the abuse issue, but it was never an overwhelming concern. Actually, the teachers were thrilled to have me in there just because I was a guy. And I really liked it because I dig children. They're funny. They have poor aim.
But the room moms! Whew! Man, I was treated like an exotic bird that had stumbled into their midst. And no one EVER trusted me to, say, set up a buffet table wit goldfish crackers or pour those tiny cups of juice. I was also thankfully excluded from the wicked politics in this particular group of mothers. Those women made a presidential campaign look like a church bake sale. I actively felt sorry for a few of the moms, who wanted to be in the pack but had been mercilessly cut out and left by the chalkboard to die a slow, friendless death.
So I don't know what all that means about men and women, but there it is.
Jon VanZile
"As for what women talk about. I think it depends on the woman and her group of friends. My friends are pretty raunchy. We talk about things that would make most men blush."
And, in my experience, men talk about sex less than women do. (There are notable exceptions). Locker room talk tends to be less about women and sex than it is about, say, sports or bitching about jobs. Really.
Oh man, and Jon talks about how the women helpers at school have vicious politics. I've got to say this, that after having worked with mostly women in the working world, that women are a lot harder on their fellow women than men are to each other. My wife agrees with me, by the way; she has told me several times that in her experience men are more interested in getting the job done and the women seem more interested in stabbing each other in the back. Or as she and my brother-in-law have commented: "Women are their own worst enemy."
Weird, but we've had the same experiences in several different situations. Can't say if it's true overall, but it makes me wonder.
Erica, I love the comments here, and especially the guy's input so we can take a peek into their minds. Very funny. I've been married for thirty-three years, and looking back we were kids when we got married. I was 19, hubby was 20. Luckily, we figured the marriage thing out as we went. Bottom line, it worked for us. And there's still things he does that totally annoy me. Male "gas" at the top of that list now. LOL. Guess if that's the biggie today, we'll make it another 50 years. Looking forward to it too.
While I grow this financially OK career, I am still supposed to get your daughters to dance, your sons to softball, groom the pet, keep a clean house, a nice garden and a healthy meal on the table. And let's not forget I should be devastating sexy, fit as a gymnast, attractive, and perfectly coifed as well.
Add proficiency with power tools and I'll put you on my short list.
I agree with Stephen. DH will not drive a girl home (if the parent forgets and drops them off when there are no lessons), for exactly the same reason. As I've gotten older, I'll break the rules and hug my students now and then, or give their shoulder a squeeze, but I'm always aware that I'm breaking the rules. (It gets to a point where I don't give a f*ck, 'cause this kid needs a hug, or needs to know I care, and if the universe wants to wreck my teaching career for it, then I say go for it.)
In today's society, it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, you worry. I don't know how our society got so screwed up like that, but it is what it is, as you say. :-)
As to the woman together thing, I think I agree. (Hopefully no one will hear me here.) I was appalled that at our last chapter retreat, several people actually got mad at someone for snoring. For crying out loud. And the ridiculousness in RWA is just too much for me. I think I was supposed to be a man.
There was a reason I mostly hung out with guys in my life. They're simple. They say what they mean. It's easy. If they've got a problem, they say something. If I've got a problem, I pour beer over their head. Next day, everything's fine. Simple.
I'm probably not content to leave it alone, keeping saying things until somebody really gets pissed off today. I was thinking as I pulled lunch together for my sons (no school today, wife working, I'm working when I'm not otherwise wasting time on blogs) that in my experience, I liked working WITH men and FOR women.
That is to say, I preferred when I was on a team with men versus women, but I preferred to have the team leader or the supervisor to be a woman. (With at least one notable exception, where I thought the female team leader should have been kicked in the head--repeatedly). But I do recognize that it could just be my experience in an industry (medical laboratory work) that tends to be dominated by women. Or just me--maybe I'm comfortable being bossed around by women (ahem) and not by men.
I love this: "When a group of two or more of us are alone, we really, I promise you, don't have pillow fights, don't strip down to our panties and bra, and don't discuss you except to complain."
To add to it, there is more to us than boobs. Look up every once in a while so you can see that!
*smacking naughty Jude* =) Didn't ya read the bit about us not wanting to be asked???
Must be my lucky day, I made Stephen's short list. Ya know I love my nail gun!
jlk:
I agree. Once a snake . . .
;-)
But I think that's true of most human beings. A lot of who we are is hard-wired and we have to be VERY motivated to change.
E
zoe:
I don't disagree . . . I think I am more dicussing this book I was editing in question. And I think, if the erotica market is an indicator, there is still a fundamental "language" different between the way . . . say a Penthouse Forum letter is written from a male perspective, and the way women erotica writers--again, for th emost part--refer to certain things.
E
JVZ:
Having been a mom on the fringe who is nearly ALWAYS avoided (but who doesn't want to be included so it's a two-way street) . . . I observe the politics of the classroom too. I actually think it's really sad the way some women seem to get their whole of identity from how pretty their daughter is or how smart their child is.
E
Hi Mark:
Well . . . I don't know. My women friends rally around me the way NO ONE does. No one. So I think if women bridge the friendship thing, for real, we can be tighter and cover each other's backs.
E
ladonna:
LOL! That's so funny. Well . . . here's to another 50 for you and your guy.
E
Hey Muse,
I'm a legs and butt man myself so looking up is the wrong direction. ;)
No, seriously...most guys do look beyond the boobs...no matter how we are portrayed...certainly if we are looking for a serious relationship or friendship.
I postulated here before about the office politics thing with women...or maybe it was Stephen's place.
I guess it's another thing about guys. We will work with someone we despise so that the "team" succeeds. I've seen, and my wife has seen, women who will destroy the entire organization to bring down a female co-worker they dislike.
Yes, I know...anecdotal...but I've seen and heard of so many such anecdotes that I'm thinking there may be something to it. It isn't bad per se, it's just that we are different in how we see things and relate to the world.
A thing about the sexes that I think we should keep in mind is that our "modern views" about roles are very new in evolutionary terms...not even the blink of an eye. Many of our traits are still hardwired for conditions that were the norm for about 99.99% of our existence.
stephen:
LOL! What about a woman with her own beer-making facilities, too, while you're at it.
E
spy:
Funny . . . growing up I had a couple of very close girlfriends--friends to this day. A few guys friends in high school, but without the depth of my best girlfriends. In my 20s, my friends were ALL men. Straight men, mostly. In my 30s, men--but mostly gay--and a few women. And now . . . more women than men--and the men are still mostly gay. :-)
E
Mark:
Thinking about it, I preferred male bosses and women co-workers. So go figure. :-)
E
Mark:
And I will add a P.S. to that. I prefer to work with gay men more than any other gender/sexuality combination. By a MILE.
Muse:
We're more than boobs? Who knew?
;-)
E
"When a group of two or more of us are alone, we really, I promise you, don't have pillow fights, don't strip down to our panties and bra, and don't discuss you except to complain."
I can't tell you how soooo disappointed us guys are to hear this. :)
Mark:
Sorry to ruin an illusion, my friend. Though I HAVE had a girlfriend make a pass at me.
E
What strikes me as the funnest thing about all of this discussion is that it is all just crazy talk ;)
We act like who we are is inflexible and written in stone... but yet we chose to be who we are, and who we are not. The best part is we keep choosing who we are every day, and yet we don't act as if it is a choice.
Then we get all significant about it and use it as an excuse to justify our activities and our behavior.
Jeez this cracks me up :) It's like living in a Shakespearean comedy.
I think if you asked, everyone would respond that they want to be liked/loved, respected, left alone when they are cranky, honored, and even hugged on occasion.
It is a sad thing that even the simple act of hugging, being connected to another human being and acknowledging our humanity can and often is mistaken for something else or used as leverage to take advantage of the other person.
So, just to add my $.02 to the discussion: we're all human, and quirky. We want what we want and don't what we don't. When others think we are being crazy, it is probably because we are - and we are not communicating in a way that is accessible to others. We don't listen and we never will. Other people's advice occurs as noise to us, and vice-versa.
Now I'm going to go sit in my chair and laugh out loud. Much of this silliness has to be captured in my WIP.
Hi ewoh:
That's why my initial post was so tongue in cheek . . . really, can we summarize any of us, any gender role, any anything?
E
P.S. But Demon Baby really IS "all boy" :-)
I work in an office with almost 50 people - about equally divided between the sexes. There is no stereotype by sex here. Some of the women act more like you'd expect men to act and some of the men are complete girls. We're all over the board. It's very interesting to hear the men's viewpoint on this topic and I'm glad you posted on it. Most men are like Rubik's cubes to me.
A question for the ladies:
Despite some very mediocre writing, why did The Bridges of Madison County strike such a nerve back in the 90s?
I read the book, but I never quite figured out why it had such mass appeal among women.
Oh I definitely agree with that, Erica. About the difference in women's erotica and Penthouse letters. There are differences. Also, I reread my post and I realize it came off really combative. I didn't mean to come off that way. When I posted it it sounded so much different in my head then it did when I came back and reread it later. So I apologize if it came off to you the way it came off to me when I just reread it.
anti-wife...You switch the stickers around until the colors all match?
:)
That's what I always did with Rubik's cubes.
Hi Anti-wife:
Thanks for that point of view. I think the bigger the company, the more you start to see wide variations in personalities and realize we're much more alike than perhaps we think.
E
Jude:
I didn't like it. But if I was to venture a guess, there isn't a woman/mother alive who doesn't at some point wonder about the path not taken. Betty Friedan was right. Women became addicted to valium at alarming rates at the advent of the women's movement when valium was overprescribed to mothers. It was to help them cope with the mind-numbing--truly mind-NUMBING--repetition and monotony of being a housewife (at times). And while we have ventured into the workplace (some of us), have careers (some of us), the thanklessness of that mother/housewife role is the same for many women. I LOVE being a mother, but I cannot deny that when I am doing ten loads of laundry a day, scrubbing toilets, ferrying children to activities and sports events, and doing the truly endless and exhausting variety of chores of a large family household that there are days my head wants to explode, particularly, I have to be honest, as someone who is super interested in going back to university for another degree, who loves to immerse herself ih books. I can dress it up in Buddhism and acts of love, and I can get through it, and even enjoy it and feel fulfilled most days--but there is always the thought of the road not taken. So I think that book and movie represented a woman who made a choice to be a farm wife, to have a family, to do it without regard for herself, to sacrifice usually without any thanks (I have great kids, they thank me, but really, until they have their own kids, they have no idea AT ALL). And the photographer was the other road. There's a poignancy and angst to giving up your dreams or fulfillment for the concept of a family. In a me-first generation, the people who stick it out in marriage are becoming smaller and smaller in number. I think those things resonated.
E
Hi Zoe:
I didn't take it that way. I was just calrifying the language issue--it is different evem if we are raunchy in our own way. ;-)
E
"It was to help them cope with the mind-numbing--truly mind-NUMBING--repetition and monotony of being a housewife (at times)."
I'm a stay-at-home parent. The tasks are mind-numbingly repetitive. I struggle every day not to get blitheringly drunk.
Hehe I think girls are more cerebral about sex. Guys are so visual I think it shuts off the language centers of the brain. ;)
That makes a lot of sense, Erica. Thanks!
anonymous:
I am a stay-at-home mom with a writing career. I RESPECT THE HELL out of stay-at-home moms because the job is so damn important--and because it IS so exhausting and repetitive, and very often thankless. I only now fully grasp how friggin' awesome my mother was. Not only did she DO it, but she did it like Harriet Nelson with some bizarr-o twist thanks to my dad. She made gourmet meals, knit us clothes, SEWED us clothes--with MATCHING sewn outfits for our dolls, and so on. And this with my dad out of the country for months at a time so no relief. I would have shot myself.
E
I am so with you on the MOm thing! I am not a great mom or a great wife but I am a great human being who loves her family and takes care of them as best I can - although it doesn't include cooking and cleaning and sewing. I don't have anything to add I just thought everything was covered beautifully!
I think there was a reason I was given 2 boys-I love men. I like that I don't get them and they totally don't get me.
JLK said it: men don't change.I know SO many women who think 'Oh when we get married he'll do this' or 'Oh I'll put a stop to him doing that'. Really? How boring to mold & shape a man to your specifications. Love him for how he is not how you wish he would be!
As for what I wish men knew about us: We don't cry for NO reason (most of us). We honestly don't like acting b*tchy when hormones strike. We don't want Mark Stuart (Martha's male equivalent)-we just want some help now and then and for you to pick up your own s%$t. Also, try touching us and loving on us without an alterior motive all the time and you might not get your hand slapped at so much.
Oh and one last thing-we don't like all the bodily fuction noises-it's great that you feel comfortable to do it around us but remember we are not your buddies-we are ladies. Would you cut loose on the 2nd date? I didn't think so!
Ello:
We sound alike.
E
Beth:
All great advice for men. Are they listening?
:-)
E
Wow, what a fantastic discussion. I do, for the men still reading, know of a room dad - his wife works, while he's a stay at home dad and going to school at night... he's awesome, I've never worried about him being around my kids in the least, he's active with baseball and school and was the only dad in the mommy and me swimming classes... I think most of the moms look at the way he is with his kids and the fact that he's always there, at all of these things we have to truck our kids back and forth to, and always present, for his own kids and the ones around him... most moms look at him and think his wife is very friggin lucky.
If we're speaking in generalities, I get along with men better in a work and social environment... I tend to have a close circle of girlfriends (more as I get older, it seems, and I still have my closest friends from early years) but new women often dislike me, and I probably add to the problem because I really don't care... when we're thrown together for longer periods of time, I think I grow on them and then it's okay... so basically, I'm female algea, there ya go.
Women are worse on each other stereotypically because they are competitive with each other but they are not competitive with men. (don't get smug, men, they don't compete with you because they think they automatically win there)
Competitive would be okay, if it was clean - it's the manipulative stuff I dislike... all stereotypical, but it does happen and that's where these things come from. And yes, I've seen women do some of the most scathing underhanded things on the planet over something as stupid as a girl looking better or being thinner or something... it's insane.
What women want and what men are usually about the same thing, you just have to deal with someone who can communicate on your level. Respect and love, the whole treat me like you'd want to be treated thing... I think the problems we run into now is that the roles have changed up so much women are taking on a larger burden, all of the home care plus a career... we may have been housewives with no career before, but at least it was a partnership...
When you have full responsibility for your kids and the house and a career, why exactly do you need a spouse? You don't - so they should probably make damn sure you WANT one.
Wow, what a discussion. I'm not sure what I can add. I did all the PTA, room mommy stuff for the kids. I was the one on the fringe mostly because I couldn't stand all the senseless yammering from the clickies. The fringe was much more interesting.
I think women want to feel it mentally/emotionally, men just have to see it. In Six Days Seven Nights Harrison Ford says something like a woman needs dinner and flowers and the only thing a man needs is for the woman to show up.
Has he nailed it?
I keep telling this family that the maid quit. (as if she was ever here to begin with) I don't think they believe me.
merry:
I thought your comments were so dead on and so utterly true. Thank you for adding to the discussion!!!
aimless:
Funny scene from that movie. LOL!
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